Page 1 of 8 1 2 3 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 156
Like Tree125Likes

Thread: 40 OL - Mild Upgrade

  1. #1
    PBN User kidturbo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Somewhere on the Ohio
    Posts
    495
    1995 Ultimate Warlock 210 LXI "Duramax Diesel" - 1992 Team Warlock 38' Express Cat "Powertrain TBD"


    Ignore User

    40 OL - Mild Upgrade

    Someone dropped off this little 2003 40' Outlaw in my yard last month and ask that I upgrade the dated Merc 900's, and #6 drives with something a little torquier.... Any you guys know how I like my Dirtymax's.

    The boat was purchased off OSO without the 900's, but did come with Huber 1450's and pair of early model plug in 6's. After reviewing cost to upgrade the drives with 1:1 gears, we decided to sell the plug in package and go with WMD's and two-speed driveline trans. Which should support the 1800flbs torque monsters I have in store.

    For now here's a couple pics of her as she looked... I've read she did run mid 90's in some older posts, saw a GPS recall photo showing 115, which I imagine was behind a truck for selling purposes. But what do you guys think she "Could" do with diesel power equal to twin 1200's Mercs?? How solid are these boats in big chop?

    20160605_151017.jpg20160605_151122.jpg20160416_134831.jpg
    642mx, hook'em, MXBAJA421 and 5 others like this.

  2. #2
    PBN Charter Member hook'em's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Plano, Texas
    Posts
    11,141
    Boss 272/502


    Ignore User
    This is gonna be kewl. The boat is extremely solid in chop, Cadillac style. I bet she'll run over 100 with 1200 a side. Thanks for posting this here KT.
    ...ridin dirty aboard...
    Can Ya Hear Me Now

    Badges?.......We Don't Need No Stinkin Badges........

  3. #3
    PBN Charter Member BajaDan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    5,185
    "Tinker Toy" - Baja 252 Islander


    Ignore User
    Kefurr is in the market for a 900! Little joke there.

    This will be a great build. Dang, I am drooling over the hardware you are taking off!
    Kefurr likes this.

  4. #4
    PBN User kidturbo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Somewhere on the Ohio
    Posts
    495
    1995 Ultimate Warlock 210 LXI "Duramax Diesel" - 1992 Team Warlock 38' Express Cat "Powertrain TBD"


    Ignore User
    I know Dan... Can' believe I'm actually letting go of 6's and built trans. Sold my big Warlock last year because I couldn't find or afford a decent set to use on it.

    Here is what's going back on it now. Bolts up to same pattern.

    20160531_153603.jpg20160610_204729.jpg
    BajaDan and 92nsx like this.

  5. #5
    PBN User kidturbo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Somewhere on the Ohio
    Posts
    495
    1995 Ultimate Warlock 210 LXI "Duramax Diesel" - 1992 Team Warlock 38' Express Cat "Powertrain TBD"


    Ignore User
    Here's one for you Baja guys.

    The WMD's have an extension box that's about 14" not shown in pic above. This box has a matching #6 cut out and bolt pattern, zero drop, but places the props 48" off the transom. I just got the drives home and noticed the other side of the box is NOT a #6 pattern. So removing the box to get back where the #6's set would require a good bit of transom work....

    The drives were last on a 50' Vee with turbines using this setup. It actually had a setback which probably put them 55" off the back.. Never operating or riding in either boat, make this depth change a huge unknown..

    Comments ?

    20160531_153824.jpg

    20160531_154116.jpg
    Last edited by kidturbo; 07-09-2016 at 08:05 PM.
    92nsx likes this.

  6. #6
    PBN Charter Member BajaDan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    5,185
    "Tinker Toy" - Baja 252 Islander


    Ignore User
    Too many assumptions to make any of this anything but conjecture at this point.

    But. Assuming that the boat was properly setup and ran well, then assuming the prop shaft was at water level way back there, we can work out where the water level should be at any point in between which should give you a mounting height.

    I have read that water rises from the stern of a planing hull at approximately 7 degrees so if that rise matches the current prop shaft depth (height?) then that is some sort of agreement. But still a ton of assumptions.

    Can you measure the shaft height? B

  7. #7
    PBN User kidturbo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Somewhere on the Ohio
    Posts
    495
    1995 Ultimate Warlock 210 LXI "Duramax Diesel" - 1992 Team Warlock 38' Express Cat "Powertrain TBD"


    Ignore User
    Since they will bolt up with the boxes, measuring the shaft height and prop location off the transom is my current plan. While these drives can be ran from surfaced to fully submerged, there is no way to adjust that once mounted up.

  8. #8
    PBN Charter Member hook'em's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Plano, Texas
    Posts
    11,141
    Boss 272/502


    Ignore User
    Man Kid, sounds like this could get tricky.

    Have you built the power yet, where do you get the donor motors? Are you rebuilding them (anyway) or "just tuning"? I don't know anyone who has worn a Duramax out. The three I've spent years around all were running fine at 300k, two (03 and 05) have been replaced with 2015's. Alison's were all working well too. Are you using the trannys that came with the boat? I thought your diesel boat actually had multiple forward gears?
    ...ridin dirty aboard...
    Can Ya Hear Me Now

    Badges?.......We Don't Need No Stinkin Badges........

  9. #9
    PBN Charter Member Short-Bus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    2,764
    F-2 Speed Racer


    Ignore User
    Are the 6's sold ?

  10. #10
    PBN User kidturbo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Somewhere on the Ohio
    Posts
    495
    1995 Ultimate Warlock 210 LXI "Duramax Diesel" - 1992 Team Warlock 38' Express Cat "Powertrain TBD"


    Ignore User
    6's were sold before I got the boat. They were early model with plug in trans.

    Hook'em; The engines are ground up builds. +0.020 LML blocks, Callies cranks, forged rods, custom pistons and such rated for around 1300hp. Transmissions will be 2spd with 1:1 second gear. My first Dmax boat was a typical Bravo XR setup with 1.26:1 gear. These drives will allow us to run 1:1 or overdrive if we need.

    I did some further measuring on the WMD's today. Above I said they were 48" off the transom, that was just to the stand off box. I measured the complete length tonight and add 12" to that number. 64" to end of splines on the shaft. Also noticed the boxes have a 12deg transom angle and the boat looks to have a 15deg. Whole new curve ball...

    20160710_144003.jpg20160710_181531.jpg

  11. #11
    PBN Charter Member BajaDan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    5,185
    "Tinker Toy" - Baja 252 Islander


    Ignore User
    Five feet of drive hanging off the back of the boat. Amazing. I cannot imagine that those would be effective in a submerged application unless you're building a tugboat.

    Somehow you are going to have to determine the height of the water relative to the running surface five feet off the back of the transom.

    Assuming 64 inches and a 7 degree water incline, we would get a 7.8 inch rise above the running surface at a point directly below the center of the transom assembly. This is too simple an analysis however and 7.8 inches may very well be greater than the depth of the running surface when on plane. The actual shape of the water flow (water trying to fill the hole left by the boats passing) will not be linear (a straight line). I am not sure of what the shape of the curve is (I will do some research and see if that is commonly available), but a parabolic curve would probably be pretty close. Even assuming that however we don't have enough information to fill in the blanks. But it is an interesting question and I will enjoy giving it some thought.

    In the meantime it would be interesting to know if that prop shaft is something along the lines of 7.8 inches above the bottom of the boat.
    kidturbo likes this.

  12. #12
    PBN User kidturbo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Somewhere on the Ohio
    Posts
    495
    1995 Ultimate Warlock 210 LXI "Duramax Diesel" - 1992 Team Warlock 38' Express Cat "Powertrain TBD"


    Ignore User
    The only 40 OL with similar setup I could find was Split Decision. She has the newer style setback transom and # 6's. As where this boat had 6's with like a 1" drop spacer and flush transom. Would be nice to speak with someone at Baja who did setup work on that boat. Looking at the pics of SD, she was in that 5' range too...

    That 2-3 deg difference between the transom angle and the stand off box angle has me worried the most. If the box was 17deg I would be happier, cause then it would be raising it up rather than dropping it down...

    I'm building a lift hook and plate today so we can hang one up there and get a look see. Adam forgot to include the inside transom plates, so I can't really mount them with weight on them. But we can hang it off the skidsteer and plug a couple bolts in it to get close.

    Thanks for the input.
    BajaDan likes this.

  13. #13
    PBN User kidturbo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Somewhere on the Ohio
    Posts
    495
    1995 Ultimate Warlock 210 LXI "Duramax Diesel" - 1992 Team Warlock 38' Express Cat "Powertrain TBD"


    Ignore User
    Here ya go Dan, show me some math. Zero inches depth at about 62" off the back....

    Higher than I figured, Reason it pays to mount them up and run a string.


    IMG_6458.JPGIMG_6459.JPGIMG_6460.JPG20160717_180059.jpg

  14. #14
    PBN User kidturbo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Somewhere on the Ohio
    Posts
    495
    1995 Ultimate Warlock 210 LXI "Duramax Diesel" - 1992 Team Warlock 38' Express Cat "Powertrain TBD"


    Ignore User
    Here is step down / gear set for normal rotation looking from the engine bay. Problem is, you can't service it with drives on boat. Won't come out through the #6 hole. So those puppies may get moved to end of transmissions and flipped up so engines set lower in the hull.

    20160717_180136.jpg

    20160717_191724.jpg
    Last edited by kidturbo; 07-17-2016 at 08:38 PM.

  15. #15
    PBN User kidturbo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Somewhere on the Ohio
    Posts
    495
    1995 Ultimate Warlock 210 LXI "Duramax Diesel" - 1992 Team Warlock 38' Express Cat "Powertrain TBD"


    Ignore User
    If 7deg is the correct angle of water leaving the hull, I come up with around 7.7" shaft depth at prop. How does speed effect that angle?

    DriveHeight1.jpg

  16. #16
    PBN Charter Member BajaDan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    5,185
    "Tinker Toy" - Baja 252 Islander


    Ignore User
    Quote Originally Posted by kidturbo View Post
    If 7deg is the correct angle of water leaving the hull, I come up with around 7.7" shaft depth at prop. How does speed effect that angle?

    DriveHeight1.jpg
    I have gotten curious about this and will look into it. Surprisingly much of what I am reading suggests that the 7 degree number I through out earlier may be for lower planning speeds. At high speeds, over a 60 inch distance, the water may not "fill in" to any appreciable extent.

  17. #17
    PBN Charter Member BajaDan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    5,185
    "Tinker Toy" - Baja 252 Islander


    Ignore User
    Well, are you ready for a surprise?

    Would you believe that over the lengths we are discussing from the transom to the prop, even the relatively long length you are working with at 64 inches, water rise is not much of an issue? And after all the discussion I have read about it over the years. I am surprised so I'm glad you got me thinking of this KidTurbo. It's always fun to solve an interesting problem.

    Since I am lazy and have forgotten most of what I knew, I did not go for an exact solution (differential equation) but even assuming the worst case and making a lot of assumptions about neglecting water viscosity and all that stuff, the water rise behind your transom at 64 inches is only approximately 1 inch. This is running at what I assume is a low planning speed of 30mph. At 60 mph this value drops to about 0.6 inches. If I were smart enough to include all the simplifications I made it would further decrease this number. In other words, it will not be more than this.

    Now the real shocker. The water rise behind the transom pales in comparison to the running angle (trim) of the boat when you factor in how far the prop is behind the boat! At 64 inches and assuming a modest running angle of 4 degrees (which is on the low side for a prismatic hull like the Baja), that will bury the prop an additional 4.5 inches. If that trim is increased to 6 degrees, the prop is buried 6.7 inches just from trim alone. As a comparison, a stepped hull might run at 2 degrees trim.

    And now the genius of the Arneson design becomes apparent. Arneson pivots their drive very close to the transom. This means that when they adjust drive trim, they are also keeping the drive in line with the water surface flowing off the running surface of the boat (As an aside, one of Arnesons patents is for a U-joint inside a ball joint. The U-joint transmits engine torque to the prop and the ball joint transmits the thrust loads to the transom much like the gimbal arrangement on a bravo style drive does.). On a bravo style gimbal the pivot is also reasonably close to the transom. However when you start adding extension boxes and other systems such as you are dealing with, this is no longer the case. The gimbal will still adjust the line of thrust (which may be more important on a none stepped hull as we are trying to leverage the bow out of the water), but the effect of raising the prop height in relation to the running surface of the boat is greatly reduced since the gimbal pivot and prop are much closer together (or conversely, the gimbal pivot is a long way from the transom). So Arneson trades off line of thrust adjustment (bow lift) for keeping the prop running at the desired depth (prop efficiency).

    So you are correct in your assumption that you are going to have to be careful about prop shaft depth (or height) as it will change a lot with boat trim. Assuming you want a prop shaft running even with the water surface I would put that shaft, at 0 drive trim (shaft parallel with the bottom of the boat), at 7 inches up and then have the ability to space down if required. You may end up needing 2 inches of spacers, but better that than too low. One thing for sure, those props are running just about fully submerged in your current setup.

    Of course this is just a hobby of mine. If you really want a good answer, and you're client is already spending a fortune to do this, I would be very tempted to contact a naval architect (e.g. Michael Peters) or Mercruiser etc. and get a professional opinion.

    Still, I bet I'm pretty close. I will try to take an angle gauge with me for kicks the next time I'm out and see if I can measure the running trim on our boat. That would be very interesting.

    While you are mounted up, measure the transom to gimbal pivot distance for me.

    Good luck!
    hook'em and kidturbo like this.

  18. #18
    PBN User kidturbo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Somewhere on the Ohio
    Posts
    495
    1995 Ultimate Warlock 210 LXI "Duramax Diesel" - 1992 Team Warlock 38' Express Cat "Powertrain TBD"


    Ignore User
    Darn, I took it back off the boat all ready. Nice explanation though, I can understand most of that.

    Actually I am going to verify the angles again on the box face, and see how much meat there is to drill some extra holes. I will measure that pivot pin distance off the box while I'm at it. I know running shim plates is not the norm for a bravo or SSM setup, but with this design I think there may be some room to gain a couple inches one way or another by changing angle of the box. Here is a pic of my son holding a level line against that box. The bottom was level, drive is level, box has down angle as is..

    IMG_6462.JPG

  19. #19
    PBN Charter Member BajaDan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    5,185
    "Tinker Toy" - Baja 252 Islander


    Ignore User
    Man, that is some nice hardware KT. The pivot is actually much farther forward than I would have thought. If that is a 4 foot level, it appears that the pivot is close to midway or about 24 inches back. Try and figure a height above the bottom of the boat for the pivot also if possible.

    Do you have a lateral location for the drive/engine centerline? In other words, how far off the center of the boat is the center of the drive (just measure from one drive bolt hole to the corresponding hole on the other side and divide by 2).

    I will post my calculations later in a separate thread on the technical page for anyone interested. I will try to compare this to a Bravo to a hypothetical Arneson if I get the time.

    Man, that drive is a beast.

  20. #20
    PBN Charter Member BajaDan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    5,185
    "Tinker Toy" - Baja 252 Islander


    Ignore User
    And just to be clear, you are saying the transom angle is 15 degrees (measured in relation to the running surface or the pad on centerline?) and the extension box is designed for a transom angle of 12 degrees resulting in an extension box angle of 3 degrees down.

Page 1 of 8 1 2 3 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •